How to Overcome Physician Mom Burnout with Dr. Diane Shannon

To go to a specific point in the transcript, please use the Episode Timeline below.

• 00:00 Introduction and Meeting Dr. Shannon
• 00:32 Dr. Shannon’s Burnout Story
• 01:42 Reflecting on Burnout and Its Causes
• 05:32 Preventing Physician Burnout: The Book
• 09:02 Coaching Women Physicians
• 17:08 Podcast Insights and Personal Notes
• 22:10 Final Advice and Contact Information

Episode 60: How to Overcome Physician Mom Burnout with Dr. Diane Shannon

When the weight of your work and family life is wearing you thin,

somewhere in the middle of it all, you start to disappear.

You’re never fully present for yourself.

And then you find yourself whispering, “I can’t keep going like this.”

You’re not alone. And more importantly, you’re not broken.

This episode is for anyone seeking real physician mom burnout support, because burnout isn’t a personal failure. It’s a systemic issue.

In today’s episode, I sat down with Dr. Diane Shannon, a physician, writer, and coach who left clinical medicine to reclaim her well-being. She has since dedicated her work to helping women physicians do the same.

We talk about recognizing the signs of burnout, why boundaries matter, and how healing starts with permission to care for yourself without guilt.

Whether you’re on the edge or already deep in the fog, this conversation offers perspective, validation, and a way forward.

Welcome to Inspired Mom MDs: Burnout Support for Physician Moms with Dr. Diane Shannon

After experiencing burnout as a young primary care physician, Dr. Diane Shannon spent 20 years as a freelance healthcare writer, highlighting communication gaps, system inefficiencies, and patient safety problems–and how to fix them.

She is co-author of Preventing Physician Burnout: Curing the Chaos and Returning Joy to the Practice of Medicine.

Today, she works with women physicians to create careers that are meaningful and sustainable. In her spare time, she enjoys traveling with her architect husband and learning how to surf.

Dr. Cindy: Good morning, Dr. Shannon. How are you?

Dr. Shannon: I’m great. Glad to be here.

Dr. Cindy: I’m so happy you’re here. I just met you in person a few weeks ago in Boston at the Women in Medicine Conference, and before I met you in person, I was an admirer of your work because you speak out about burnout and the causes and how to approach it and fix it.

So, it was a pleasure to meet you and I’m so glad you are here today.

Dr. Shannon: Thank you.

Dr. Cindy: Can you briefly share your story of burnout and what caused you to walk away from clinical medicine?

Why Dr. Diane Shannon Left Medicine: A Burnout Story Too Many Physician Moms Know

Dr. Shannon: Yeah. Well, I can say that, uh, it was a really dark time, but it was so long ago now that I can talk about it without crying.

Right. Okay. So, during my residency, I had severe burnout, but there were no words for that back then. And I, I was [00:01:00] even called into the director, the department chair, internal medicine who said like, I hear there’s something wrong. Right.

And I just burst into tears, like I couldn’t even express what was wrong.

But he said, “You know, the middle of internship is not a good time to make a big decision.”

And so, I stuck out and I kept each year I’d say, “I’m just gonna finish this year. I’m just going to finish this rotation, just gonna take my boards.”

And so, and then I practiced for a few years. And when I decided to leave, it wasn’t that I was in severe burnout, it was that I didn’t know how not to go into burnout again.

And I couldn’t see a way to avoid it.

When I look back now, I can say, you know. Back then when I was training and practicing, there wasn’t a lot of attention to patient safety. I was constantly worrying about my patients and things that would fall through the cracks, and they did.

There wasn’t this appreciation of patient safety being a [00:02:00] system issue. It was all about some individual who made a mistake. And that just felt very heavy and draining to me.

So, I decided to leave. It was not an easy decision, but I really felt like there were only two alternatives.

Stay and burn out again or leave clinical practice.

Now I know that there are other alternatives, that there are things I could have done that I could have asked for help.

But back then I didn’t know that, and I didn’t see it. It wasn’t as obvious as it is today. So that’s one good thing that’s happened over the past, 25 or 30 years.

Dr. Cindy: So, it never feels like a good time to just stop what you’re doing, like what your director told you.

Dr. Shannon: Yeah.

Dr. Cindy: Internship year is not a good time, but I can imagine the next year they will say the same thing.

This year is not a good time. Right. And you just stick it out and you just keep going. So, if you could talk to your younger self, knowing what you know [00:03:00] now what would you have told her?

Dr. Shannon: I would’ve said, “Don’t shed so much of your life,” because that’s what I did. In order to keep going, I let go of an important relationship.

I had a five-year relationship that I chose to end. Not because there was a relationship problem so much as I couldn’t handle anything.

I gave up hobbies, I gave up exercise, I gave up reading, which I’d done my whole life, you know?

So, all of these things I just kept shedding in order to do this mechanical thing, which was to stay in practice, to stay in training.

And I think that’s the thing really appreciating and owning the fact that we are human beings. When you look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, so many of those don’t get met easily in training the sleep, exercise. Like we get shelter, but that may be the only thing, right?

I think it’s easy to continue with that way of thinking or just [00:04:00] surviving and, it’s very easy to think that’s the only way.

And so, I wish I’d known there are other ways there is help. It’s okay to ask for help. It’s okay to say this isn’t working and I really am struggling and, but I think I took on so much of the messaging.

The hidden curriculum about you just sticks it out and you keep going. It’s okay to shed these parts of your life. And I’d say now, no, it’s not okay. It’s not okay to shed all those parts of your life.

Dr. Cindy: And to speak out back then may not have been well received because the messaging wasn’t out there about burnout.

Dr. Shannon: That’s right.

Dr. Cindy: But today, women today, when they speak out, it’s my hope. And your hope, I’m sure that it will be received well.

Dr. Shannon: Yes. Yeah. Right. Or at least there’s some validation from others who are going through the same experience.

What I see in my coaching clients now, and especially in groups that I run for women physicians, [00:05:00] is that until they have that dedicated time, they don’t realize that other busy women physicians are experiencing the same thing.

It feels like a personal struggle. Like, why can’t I hack this? Why can’t I get this right? When really, it’s a common problem and there are things that people can do, individuals can do, but just understanding it is a larger problem than just you.

Dr. Cindy: Right. And that leads into – you stepped out of clinical medicine, and you’ve been a, a writer for 20 years, I believe.

Dr. Shannon: Yes.

Dr. Cindy: And you wrote a book called Preventing Physician Burnout. I have it here. All the corners are like folded over because it’s just chockfull of amazing information.

I like the way this book breaks down the root causes of burnout.

And it’s not just the individual, but also the workplace and it’s also the external drivers. Like, you know, you have this healthcare system and so it’s not [00:06:00] the physician’s fault. Although there are things a physician can do, it’s a combination of everything.

So, I like how you really broke this down and you introduced ways. To approach these three root causes, I’m probably oversimplifying it, but to approach the root causes of burnout.

Tools to Prevent Physician Burnout: Insights from Dr. Shannon’s Book

Dr. Shannon: No, that’s exactly it. And we, so we interviewed my, um, my co-author and I, Paul Desant, who’s also a physician who held leadership positions. So, we had, he came at it from two different perspectives.

But we interviewed around. 60 experts who had either done research on burnout the healthcare system or were physicians who’d experienced burnout themselves. And what we really came to was that there are these kind of three buckets.

So, there is the individual, and the fact is if you come in. And let’s say you’re in the middle of a divorce, you are not gonna be at your best and you’re going to be at risk for burnout because of what you bring to the job that day or that year, right?

So, there is this little piece that’s the [00:07:00] individual, and then there are these other places.

It’s the workplace. And now I divide that into. The immediate practice environment, like the clinic, the department level, and then the larger organization and leadership and culture the last is that external, it’s everything outside the organization, and sometimes that’s changing patient demographics or changing patient expectations – that affect the organization and then in turn affect the physician.

So, it was really helpful for us to see that from our, interviews and divide it that way, and then to think about what are some potential solutions on each of those levels.

Dr. Cindy: And so, in researching that book, what surprised you the most about burnout?

Dr. Shannon: Well, I’ll tell you what relieved me was hearing over and over and over again. It’s not the individual, it’s not about individual susceptibility, because I carried that for probably [00:08:00] a decade at least, of thinking, why couldn’t I hack it?

And I was a freelance writer for many years before writing the book, and part of that was just a way to use what I knew but try to understand like what happened to me.

Right? To dig into some of those drivers. What is it about this healthcare system that made it so I couldn’t figure out how to take care of patients and take care of myself at the same time?

So that was part of my journey, I was really trying to understand. What surprised me was that over and over again, there was this affirmation that it’s not about individual susceptibility or lack of resilience.

I mean, physicians are some of the most resilient people there are. Yes. And so, I kind of shy away from even using that term because there’s a piece to being able to bounce back and being grounded enough to kind of go through difficult times. But resilience – physicians have tons of resilience.

Dr. Cindy: Oh, they do. Yes. Or they wouldn’t be where they are.

Dr. Shannon: [00:09:00] Right, exactly.

How Coaching Helps Women Physicians Take Back Control

Dr. Cindy: So how does this lead to your work today? So today you work with women physicians, I believe specifically to create careers that are meaningful and sustainable. Yeah. How did you choose to work with women physicians specifically?

Dr. Shannon: The transition from full-time writer to now full-time, kind of time strategist is that I saw – I was interviewing a physician who created a coaching program for his health system because he’d experienced burnout.

And when I talked to him, I said, wait a second, you’re helping individuals, but this is a system problem, I don’t understand this.

And he said, well, what we found is that when we worked with individuals, in cohorts, after we had hit a critical mass of physicians who’d gone through the program, it changed the culture in our organization and they then had the energy and bandwidth to engage in [00:10:00] fixing some of the system and practice level issues that have been driving burnout in the first place.

So that inspired me because I would be helping not only individuals, but also there’d be this ripple effect throughout the organization.

That’s part of the reason why I think it’s so important is that when physicians are experiencing burnout, anyone, experiencing job burnout, you cannot raise your head above just surviving the day. Like that is part of burnout.

So, you can’t be thinking of going upstream to fix something that would actually make your day better. There’s this piece that’s about really working with the individual.

And so, I was inspired by that to get coach training and went back and, and trained as a gestalt coach, which is a specific approach that really what I love about it is it’s focused on the individual is not broken.

We are helping [00:11:00] individuals to use the resources they have to identify where they want to go, what’s in the way, and take steps to get there. So it’s very much a positive and optimistic approach.

So, then I started coaching a little bit before the pandemic. And what I saw was that the number, you know, women physicians have always had higher burnout rate than their male colleagues, but that gender disparity began to increase with the pandemic.

I wanted to understand why. And so, I did a little research project of my own and interviewed, did semi-structured interviews with women physicians across the country in different fields, different age groups, and. And really that helped me to understand some of the factors that were going into that number.

And I just, I’m so intrigued by what’s underneath. And so, since then I’ve been working mostly with women physicians.

To basically help [00:12:00] them to understand what those drivers are for them and the places where they have agency to make changes.

And sometimes that’s about mindset.

Sometimes it’s learning how to set boundaries to say no, to work with that perfectionistic tendency that all physicians have,but can sometimes get in their way. The people pleasing, things like that where they have agency to make changes.

And then use small experiments to try something a little different with a very much like the researcher’s approach, which is when you try something, it’s the researcher and it doesn’t work or come out the way you wanted.

Or you thought it would. That is not failure. It is simply data. So, try to take that approach to making changes.

I do one-on-one, I also work with groups of women physicians within health systems where their health systems of noticed that [00:13:00] women have higher rates of burnout, and they want to do something to try to support and retain their women.

And so, I do group coaching programs with them.

Dr. Cindy: Okay. So essentially, you’re helping one-on-one, you’re helping women take agency.

Dr. Shannon: Yes.

Dr. Cindy: And when they do that, the changes will have a ripple effect on the bigger system.

Dr. Shannon: Yes.

Dr. Cindy: And yes, women are disproportionately burned out and have higher rates of suicide even than, than male physicians.  And then you mentioned, which I really like, the research approach where if you’re testing something, uh, it really, it’s not a failure, but you learned from that.

Dr. Shannon: That’s right.

Dr. Cindy: And you learn something about yourself. What are some tools or mindset shifts?

You mentioned a few that you found are just the most powerful in helping, these physician moms take back agency. So [00:14:00] what’s, what is one tool that just springs to mind?

Dr. Shannon: I think working on the guilt around saying no, I think that’s a big one. And we get that from two sources, right?

As physicians, we’re told to always put the patient first. We’re also worried about patient experience scores and then as women in our society we’re told to or we’re, the message we get is to take care of others first.

The idea of saying no when we get a request. When maybe we could do it, meaning we have a slot on our calendar.

That’s open. Oh sure. And then I used to do this all the time. Someone asked me, two o’clock Tuesday, can you do this? I look at my calendar, it’s free. Of course I can do it. Not taking into account the fact that putting that in might mean I have to say no to something else because I don’t have the energy to do something later.

Right. Or maybe that slot could have been me exercising, and that was the only chance. Right?

[00:15:00] I think that that ability to, and it’s such a process. It’s not like you do this one exercise and suddenly “no” comes easily and you don’t feel guilt. It’s like a process. But it’s something that women physicians can learn, and it makes a huge difference in the time they have to then devote to themselves.

I was just at a celebration dinner finishing a group coaching program last night, and women were talking about how they were just because, because of finishing this program, they’re just starting to think about hobbies. Like what hobby might I take on? Right. Whereas before they’re like, I hadn’t done anything like that.

I hadn’t even thought of a hobby.

I think there are ways of protecting that time so that we have more in our life and then we’re able to give back more. I.

Dr. Cindy: Right. I 100% agree. I’ve seen everything you have just said I’ve seen in my own life. And now I [00:16:00] take it for granted that I have a hobby.

And when you just said that I’m like, well, that’s right. There was a time in my life when I wouldn’t do anything besides work and take care of my kids. That was it.

Dr. Shannon: Right. And that’s not to say it’s easy to do this. I mean, now my kids are grown, and I have expanded my hobbies tremendously, but I think.

Even, you know, maybe, maybe not the newborn period. I think that’s the, that’s an exception. You’re just totally focused on, on children and, and even I will say I noticed a big change when my youngest turned three and then suddenly I had more time and energy to pursue some things that have been put on hold.

But I even, you know, even from the time that they’re beyond the newborn stage, until that period of time, I could do little things. Right, and it really, there are different phases to a physician mom’s life. That is definitely true.

Dr. Cindy: Absolutely right. I’m in the phase where they’re in high school, but I remember the [00:17:00] phase when they first started dressing themselves and getting ready in the morning, I’m like, what do I do with my time? So yeah, I remember that.

Podcasting, Sisterhood, and the Hidden Costs of Being a Woman in Medicine

Dr. Cindy: Okay, so you are also the host of a podcast. It’s called Vital Signs, thriving As a Woman in Medicine and as a podcaster yourself, what is something meaningful that you’ve learned from your guests?

Dr. Shannon: Ah. Gosh, a couple things. Well, this, we’ll say my favorite thing that I’ve done is to have my sister on, and she is a researcher in psychology and a professor at the Ross Business School at University of Michigan. And her focus, her, like all of her scholarship is about building positive organizations.

She’s now started working in healthcare and so our careers have converged for the one-year anniversary of my podcast I had her on. So that’s been the most exciting thing.

Dr. Cindy: Congratulations. I love that.

Dr. Shannon: Yeah. Um, I think what has surprised me is some of the research that looks at the data [00:18:00] below the data.

We know that women physicians spend more time on the electronic health record.

And if you just saw that, you might think. Well, let’s make them more efficient. Let’s give them some extra training. Why is it that they’re so slow? But then when you look at the data that’s come out since that, it explains why, and it is spending, um, more time and messaging because women physicians get more messages from staff and from patients.

It’s the fact that patients expect them to reply more quickly. And if they don’t, it does affect their patient satisfaction scores, and it doesn’t affect male physician scores.

So, there’s this data that explains this, this discrepancy, and the way to address that is not to give women more training, it’s to say, how can we as an organization spread the work or look at patient panels [00:19:00] and risk adjusting them or somehow giving additional time that’s paid for women physicians to deal with the increased number of messages that they get.

It’s a way of looking at what’s really happening, then we can have a solution that actually works.

Dr. Cindy: Right. And will those patients have, like you said, higher patient satisfaction scores, which is what? Companies want. So yeah, I fully agree with that.

Dr. Shannon: The issue relates to how physicians are compensated, right? Yes. Right now, with RVU compensation, women are not generally compensated for that time spent in messaging where, and so they, and if they, if they do that, they either have to finish the messaging and that extra work at night in their personal time, or they are seeing fewer patients and therefore have lower RVUs.

So [00:20:00] right now the system is not set up to reimburse for the kind of work that women do, the extra, very important, valuable work that women do. And so that has to shift to really appreciate that this work they’re doing will result in higher patient experience scores.

And better quality too.

Dr. Cindy: It’s like they’re caught in a catch 22. They want to follow their values and treat the patient as they know they should, but they can’t because then they fall behind from their peers who are doing more, faster. They’re torn. I can see how they’re torn between that.

Dr. Shannon: Absolutely.

Dr. Cindy: So. On a personal note, you are learning to surf, and I came across something just last night. I thought, oh, this is perfect. I’d never heard it before, but it’s the surfer mentality when a surfer is up on that wave and they’re embracing the moment of being on that wave.

And for me, I, I’m like, oh, that’s mindfulness. So, you can be out on the ocean and [00:21:00] surfing. And when you get that perfect wave, you’re in a moment of mindfulness and appreciation for what you have at the moment. That’s my interpretation. Tell me about surfing and what you take away from it.

Dr. Shannon: I’m like a gambler who was hooked from the first time because when I first learned to surf, in Mexico, it was on actually a work retreat, and we had this option of doing this excursion and going surfing and I almost didn’t go. But then one of my colleagues was like, I’m going to go, I’m going to do everything while I’m here.

I went. And I got up the first time and it was unbelievable. I was like, oh my gosh, this is the most amazing feeling.

I’ve kind of continued to chase that, but I. It was both this peak experience, but also, I don’t, I guess I would, I guess it’s mindfulness because I was totally in the moment.

But also terrified, like, oh my gosh. Right. There’s this way that you’re always aware that, you know, I’m not a great surfer so I’m not in total control. [00:22:00] So, um, so there’s always that combination of, is this going to be okay? But it feels amazing right now.

Final Advice for Burned Out Physician Moms + How to Connect with Dr. Shannon

Dr. Cindy: Right. Okay. So I guess we’re almost out of time, but I just wanted to end with, you offering the audience a piece of advice for, let’s say the, the mom out there right now who is in that catch 22 and they are just kind of feeling overwhelmed and they don’t have the energy to, to fight against the system and feeling stuck. I understand you could talk for hours about what they could do, but what’s just one piece of advice or word of encouragement for them?

Dr. Shannon: Yeah, I think it’s, you know, depending on what phase you’re in, like if you have, and this, so much of this depends on both the career path, where you are and your children where they are, right?

Given whatever that phase is. What can you do to remember that you’re human and really own that?

For some of the [00:23:00] clients I work with, we realize that what sets them up for a good day, the next day, the number one thing for them is sleep. And so, they try small experiments to improve their sleep, and that might be as easy as going to bed 20 minutes earlier or setting a timer when they’re going to get off screens.

Something small that identifies that this is setting them up to have a better day tomorrow. And, and that, I guess that would be the one thing, like just owning that you’re human and getting those basic needs met is really key.

You know, the top of the pyramid is self-actualization. That’s what we’re all going for. It’s like having meaningful work in a meaningful life. And that is possible. And it starts with the bottom, with the bottom part of the pyramid.

Dr. Cindy: Meet the basic needs. Remember that you’re human and address that first. Yes. Very nice. So where [00:24:00] can listeners reach you if they want to, you know, just get to talk to you or, or where can they find your podcast?

Dr. Shannon: My podcast is pretty much everywhere. You just have to search for the whole title, Vital Signs: Thriving as a Woman in Medicine. My website is dianeshannon.com. My email is diane@dianeshannon.com. And, I’m just happy to speak with anybody if questions about resources, about what to do next about first steps.

Happy to speak with any physician moms.

Dr. Cindy: Perfect, and I will list those all in the show notes for everyone. Wonderful. I really appreciate you being here today and sharing all your wisdom and advice for this audience.

Dr. Shannon: Thank you so much for having me.

Links for Dr. Diane Shannon:

www.dianeshannon.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianewshannon/

Podcast: Vital Signs: Thriving as a Woman in Medicine

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